Why it is OK to attack Namelesses and Fawns.

Unplugged's picture
aka "let's play Devil's Advocate".

-) New players don't understand what the emotes mean anyway. So if someone taunts them, they don't see it as anything bad. They see it as a normal interaction.

-) New players aren't well-versed in body-language. To understand it and get more experienced with it they should learn which action provokes which reaction.

-) "If they annoy me they should know it!" New players have to learn what is acceptable and what isn't.

-) It's all interpretation anyway so they shouldn't be offended in the first place. "If they interpret it negatively it's not my fault."


Food for thought.




Eye
quadraptor's picture

Good points. I don't attack



Good points. I don't attack them myself but I do see it all the time. I think this should be bumped continuously until everyone sees it.

Thank you.

Thank you.
MickKreiger's picture

I agree with Quad, good

I agree with Quad, good points.
You Know You Love Me XOXO
Mick Kreiger

Sometimes I wonder if all the

Sometimes I wonder if all the aggression towards them is the reason why there's been so many cases of trolling before. Or maybe the reason for so many aggressive deer.

You reap what you sew.
Zeezie.'s picture

&yes

&yes
Gone.

Agreed

Agreed <3

I still wouldn't attack them though for the sake of good manners, plus it's pixels, it's not like it'll hurt them too much ;D

Sig by Baal.

i ignore them, log out, or

i ignore them, log out, or move. i just don't like fighting in game that much.

interesting viewpoint, still.

Sighthoundlady's picture

I seriously doubt most brand

I seriously doubt most brand new players to the game have any idea what constitutes aggressive behavior or not. Especially since there is no harm anybody can actually do to anybody else. Subtleties of deer body language take time to learn. And it’s easy to move or mute the sound if there is something bothering me. Personally, I use friendly emotes when dealing with nameless deer or fawns, because as other’s have said, it’s just good manners. I have no experience with in-game fights myself but I would never “attack” another player unless it was something that was pre-arranged in an RP here, where attack is expected or warranted. Otherwise one just comes off as a jerk.

I've seen a couple of cases

I've seen a couple of cases inwhich new players have been offended by violence ingame. And not all new players are on TEF to RP.

I think it best to treat them as non-players until learning otherwise, but even then I'd never attack a fawn or nameless - no exceptions. Harassment deer get ignord. Smiling

No good telling people who they are and what they should think.




Not replying directly to your post, just posting my views.
Sighthoundlady's picture

"No good telling people who

"No good telling people who they are and what they should think."

Yes to this. And if you try, you will spend your life frustrated and angry. Eye
MrsMorbid's picture

I am wary of all deer until I

I am wary of all deer until I know if they are IC or what their intentions are.
It used to just be fawns and nameless for me. It all changed when I witnessed something.
My real life friend was trying TEF on her laptop, and I'd sent her my spelldata to use (this was pre-spelldata loading).
I won't name names, but she was attacked relentlessly for wearing the same set as this person (save for the antlers) to the point where she had to log out.
She went back to playing The Path, and I haven't seen her touch TEF since.

BUT YES. Moral. Maybe take into consideration that anyone you don't know could be a new player?
I'm all for staying IC, but let's not allow it to get that far?
Uruushou's picture

Personally, I don't think

Personally, I don't think it's "okay" to attack fawns and the nameless in the game. To say that it's "okay" implies that those who are being attacked wouldn't mind either, and that is not always the case. You make good points, and you are right. However, not every player is going to treat an attack passively; they will assuredly almost always take it personally. Players might even end up being scared off at the worst, and since they don't know the emotes very well they can't communicate that they don't want to be bothered or start any trouble.

I guess when I put myself in the shoes of one who is being attacked, and I have hardly any knowledge of the game, I would be offended and saddened by an "attack". Even though I wouldn't know the emotes very well, I can certainly recognize aggression and taunting even in a game that has no chat features.

I am not sure if I am getting my point across very well, but I will say this: be mindful of others, even if your deer is IC. It is fine if you're IC, but the other player will have no idea of knowing that. They may even think that this is normal behavior in the game and may be further put-off by that. :|
quadraptor's picture

"I won't name names, but she

"I won't name names, but she was attacked relentlessly for wearing the same set as this person (save for the antlers) to the point where she had to log out"

That really saddens me that someone would be that possessive over a set. I love it when another deer looks like Quad (or has the real deer mask, beluga pelt, and a different set of antlers). It makes me glad that someone else actually likes the same look that I do.

I mean how many people do you know that wears the real deer mask and pelt with the doe antlers? I think everyone should be allowed to wear what they like regardless of "oh that's Quad's/Virgil's/Quamar's/ect set". I'm certainly not possessive of the look I've given Quad and encourage others to wear the beluga pelt with real deer mask as it is just a great set to me.
Uruushou's picture

^ That...is a horrible reason

^ That...is a horrible reason to attack someone. I can imagine the one being attacked was very confused and hurt by all of this, especially since s/he was forced to log out. There are only so many combinations one can come up with for a set, especially for ones that would look nice, and there are many players who wear real deer masks and pelts. If I saw someone wearing the same set as any of my deer, I would find it funny and play with them. No set is trademarked to anyone, and it's a shame that someone had to be scared off by such an occurrence. *sigh*
eyestrain's picture

When I started playing, I

When I started playing, I thought the "surprise" emote was an aggressive one... sort of like shouting at another deer. I avoided it. I thought of rearing as a gesture of excitement, not violence. Being ignored or avoided was far more upsetting than having any gesture aimed at me.

Only after I came to the forums did I learn that anyone plays "aggressively" or that there is "fighting" in the forest.

It broke my heart a little, to be honest.
In the forest itself, there is no real violence. Only when people label it as violence does it become violence.

I don't strive to be the best, but instead I strive to do my best, and always give it my all every time.
-faunet
Sighthoundlady's picture

Eyestrain, I had similar

Eyestrain, I had similar confusion with the emotes when I first started playing. I thought rearing was fun and playful. Thankfully nobody “attacked” me. At least not as far as I could tell. I was pretty oblivious though so it didn’t matter.

And the comments about folks getting upset because another deer is wearing “their” set greatly saddens me. I’m drawn to other deer wearing the monarch butterfly pelt as it’s my favorite. I always seek out other deer wearing it to dance with them. Smiling
Iaurdagnire's picture

I agree with you Unplugged

I agree with you Unplugged (:

When you're brand new to the game, you don't instantly know what the actions communicate. You pick your favourites; I remember finding the lower-antlers a fun thing to do. The action itself isn't forceful, it's pretty lazy lowering of the head to be honest.
I remember that if I came across a deer who was boring and didn't want to play - mooed or taunted at me or something - I just went off to find someone else. It didn't hurt, there was no reason for it to. That's what all newplayers/fawns do; I've met countless fawns this week, and with the best will in the world I can't be a constant source of entertainment, and they all left when they pleased.

By the time you're an adult if you've been playing regularly for a month, you've picked up on basic forest communication. You've probably seen a "fight", or been on the end of an harasser yourself. You know what you like, and know what you find boring or don't like. It's that simple.

But when you come to the website, the barriers are broken and you discover there are attitudes you like and attitudes you don't like from players. It is text communication between people that gave birth to what should be construed as violence, rude or hurtful.
Alphafrost's picture

I have been attacked before,

I have been attacked before, right out of the, and it made me amazingly upset; My deer ran; they chased. Honestly? I would say the Forest seems to be a breeding ground for trollers, but... S'not like that. I mean, yeah, they can emote at you, but... Why should they? Why should someone not in IC WANT to do that? I don't... understand it. I mean, the play emotes are there for a reason. I don't mean to be offending, but... I find this silly behavior. and even in OOC, just... don't do it. I mean, do it to a tree, or something. TEC loses it's innocence when we have people on there that constantly attack. I want TEC to be TEC. Magical, beautiful, amazing. ..Not something to complain about, honestly. :C


Note; if your gonna do it IC, make sure the other player knows. ;(
Du Erinnerst Mich An Liebe; Ich + Ich
snowbell's picture

when i first came into the

when i first came into the forest deer kept going into listen and i didnt know that it was listen, and when i looked into the orange comman strip the 'taunt' pose looked similar to the way they stood in listen. i was clueless and i am very embaressed that i didnt know. X.X cuz i met two awesome deer and they went in listen alot i tried to copy them. and then i learnt what does what. so i felt bad XD it was only my second time in the forest though... but i got attacked once or twice cause i didnt understand. but i wasnt sure if their reaction to me was a threat or not. i got so confused. @.@ then i refered to the site and it made sense.


Party image
Click the pokemon : D
eyestrain's picture

I will always think that the

I will always think that the actions should not have a single set meaning, and that deciding what actions mean and therefore what is being communicated should always remain fluid and up to the player. That is the most beautiful and unique quality of the forest.

I don't strive to be the best, but instead I strive to do my best, and always give it my all every time.
-faunet

I am new to the game, and I

I am new to the game, and I personally think it would be okay to rect negetivily to a fawn or guest, IF, they are being annoying, inapprorpiete, etc, but not if the fawn or guest was only accidently provoking anger, or they are not doing anything to invoke a negetive response.
Te Err Liba

Je suis un chrétien fier

Anima Wolf
Spirtus tempestatis

This is really a issue? My

This is really a issue?

My thoughts:

I'll play the game how I damn well please. If people want to complain let them waste their energy doing so. My deer will attack, provoke, and annoy as much as I want it to. Any naysayers can suck it.

No rules
No objectives

I'll do what I want.

^ Aren't you a nice, kind and

^ Aren't you a nice, kind and considerate person.
If you're going to have an attitude like that, you'll end up alone here.

Just sayin'
Fincayra's picture

Someone pissed in Caturday's

Someone pissed in Caturday's cheerios. (:

Siggies by Saosin and Possessed. ♥

MrsMorbid's picture

Five hour old

Five hour old account~.

Winning.

*lmao*

*lmao*

I hardly care if I turn up

I hardly care if I turn up alone. I will voice my opinion wherever and however.

If you think you have the

If you think you have the guts to voice your opinion "wherever and however" without a care, do it on your own fucking original account. You were posting pointless comments all over Aux's blog, too.
Besides, Unplugged has stated some good strong points here, and I totally agree.
Flyleaf's picture

Pffff ! Only making an

Pffff ! Only making an account for THIS ! Shame ! How imature !
Avatar @ Butterbrot Siggy @ Amazegenalo and Edmund

You people are lol worthy.

You people are lol worthy.
Fincayra's picture

I'm getting a great kick out

I'm getting a great kick out of you, too. 8'D Thanks for making my day.

Siggies by Saosin and Possessed. ♥

eyestrain's picture

Do you think you'll stay with

Do you think you'll stay with us, or are you going to move on, Caturday?

In either case, welcome to the forest.

I don't strive to be the best, but instead I strive to do my best, and always give it my all every time.
-faunet
Apeldille's picture

Hehe. That's okay, you are

Hehe. That's okay, you are too.

And you're an older member

And you're an older member who made a new account just to troll. (8
Trollin' trollin' trollin'
Trollin' trollin' trollin'
RAWWHIDDEEEEEE.

Keep it up, you amuse us.
Kaoori's picture

oh god, it came here too.

oh god, it came here too.
Seed's picture

While this tangent is

While this tangent is amusing, I say we should get back to the actual discussion...A few of the points in the OP contradict others:

If the fawn and nameless do not know what the action means, then how would they know that you want them to stop when you use it? One should either count on one or the other, you cannot count on both as default states.

Now, I personally also hold that forest violence is what you make of it and all that jazz... That said, I think that if one decides to talk right/wrong ... It is always wrong to harass others, even if they annoy you. My use of the word "harass," though, is important. I generally think that it's wrong to actively pick a fight with a new player, and it's wrong to keep going after they try and disengage. But a little innocent playfight, returning their gestures, is fun in my book.

...And I'd say for teaching, it's OK to fire off a negative when they do something annoying...And then disengage. Walk away. If they keep at it, repeat. I personally go no stronger or more ambigious than a head-shake for "no," since it's not very ambigious or very agressive. It's ok to express displeasure or a character's displeasure... But I think there's a degree of restraint needed in dealing with everyone, both new and old players, but especially players you know for sure probably do not know what's bugging you.

Just my two cents.
GingerNut's picture

You may be playing ICly. You

You may be playing ICly. You may feel the need to 'teach' new players forest etiquette. You may say that it's up to interpretation.

But that dosen't change the fact that you're purposefully lowering your antlers at an ignorant nameless that dosen't know any better. I've had a friend that's tried out the forest only to be scared away by a deer that relentlessly attacked her. Yes, they can be irritating, but I've always tried to be polite to namelesses and fawns. If they annoy me, I walk away. There are better ways to tell someone that they annoy you. c:

But hey, that's just me.

Unplugged's picture

Seed you bring very good

Seed you bring very good arguments against what has been said in the OP. Good points about acting negatively only when the situation really calls for it.

I guess the mindset of the first argument would be "they don't understand so I can do what I want. if I want to 'attack' them I can do that because it's nothing bad to them. They get to have their fun because they see I'm reacting, and I get to have my fun with the way I want to play the forest".
So person X with this argument would find it enjoyable to imitate aggressive behaviour just for the sake of it. Believing it won't hurt the other person they feel right in having their fun.


Just for clearing up, I also don't agree with going aggressively after clueless players. Smiling


And while we're at it, one of my favourite forest stories.
eyestrain's picture

Haha, I loved reading that.

Haha, I loved reading that. The forum links aren't correct but I think that brief article sums it up, doesn't it?

Thanks Unplugged.

I don't strive to be the best, but instead I strive to do my best, and always give it my all every time.
-faunet
Unplugged's picture

Yes, the links are sadly

Yes, the links are sadly outdated but the comments tell enough to be able to follow. :)
Funny you didn't know about that yet! I always assumed most were already aware of it and I just wanted to remind people of that blog post.
eyestrain's picture

I've only been on the tale of

I've only been on the tale of tale forums once or twice. I assumed this community was the forum I should spend my time in because I play TEF more than any the other games.

I don't strive to be the best, but instead I strive to do my best, and always give it my all every time.
-faunet

Personally, I have only seen

Personally, I have only seen one thing so far that looked even remotely like fighting, and it was between a fawn and an older deer. Personally, neither seemed really upset, and the fawn knew the emotes enough to show sadness, but they both ended up laughing, so it must have been play. Personally, I think there should be buttons that meant things like stop, and sorry, that way, if you did something you regret, you can try and prevent further hurt. Now if the other person is being an ass. . . Well, then its your choice. If the person who is attacking you is a fawn, and is being kind of random, they might just be getting used to the controls. But it they seem to know EXACTLY what they are doing (and getting a kick out of it too) then, well you can either ignore it (Like that's gonna happen), you can play along (When hedgehogs fly), you can report it (thats an iffy. If they are harassing you multiple time, or in a gang effort, yea, but if its just some over extended horse-play, well, it's your call. Or you can react. To bad there isn't an "I'm gonna kick your ass button".
Te Err Liba

Je suis un chrétien fier

Anima Wolf
Spirtus tempestatis
Alphafrost's picture

Just.. stay away from the

Just.. stay away from the attackers-ees. Simple.

But.. really? Who is this Caturday person? -.-'
Du Erinnerst Mich An Liebe; Ich + Ich
onyxsoulclaw's picture

In the begining I was nieve,

In the begining I was nieve, I admit that, I chased deer and fawns to try and make friends they ran away I got mad and used the attack moves.

I was wrong to take out my frustrations on them.
I got torn in to but this community.
I felt Rejected

But i know i was wrong I should not have been so angery

I should have remembered ..


...... It's just a game.

By the way Please remeber M & A both have been known to play as namless fawns/adults from time to time.
http://dragcave.net/user/Steelclaw Can you save an eggi?
Unplugged's picture

Krystal posted a good

Krystal posted a good question over there.

Quote:
(...) Conversely, however, and just a little tidbit for thought...it's ironic that on innumerable occasions, deer that are present on the community go out of their way to blatantly ignore a nameless regardless of the emotes they do, but yet this is rarely ever brought up as something to dissuade new players from continuing the game. As a new player, wouldn't you be more inclined to at least live in a forest where you received negative attention as apposed to receiving absolutely none at all....? (Especially if you weren't necessarily sure what all the actions really meant) (...)
((emphasis mine))

This is of course a point to consider.
Do new players prefer "aggressive" interaction over no interaction at all? Do they see interactions simply as "attention" or "no attention"?

But the nameless deer cannot know whether they are being ignored purposefully or not. Players may be approached by a nameless while they're afk or doing something else. The new player might not now that and feel ignored when this is not the case. There's no reason for the afk player to feel guilty though, or to be blamed because they were genuinely busy.

But what if it's a matter of laziness, or sociability? Is it ok to ignore namelesses with the disguise of being busy, even if it could be interpreted negatively? Is it better to give them a small acknowledgement than none at all?

Is it right to 'lie' about being afk? I guess it's a question of morals.
eyestrain's picture

quoting myself...

quoting myself... haha

Quote:
Being ignored or avoided was far more upsetting than having any gesture aimed at me.

I don't strive to be the best, but instead I strive to do my best, and always give it my all every time.
-faunet
Krystal's picture

Ah Unplugged, I'm glad you

Ah Unplugged, I'm glad you put this here as well, really should've been added to this debate originally anyway!

I think for the most part, a nameless can figure things out based on intuition over time much more than most people give them credit for or assume, I'm using my own experience here as a base so obviously it can't be applicable overall. But when I was fresh to the game, when I saw a deer laying down and unresponsive to my actions, I rarely looked at it as blatantly ignoring me, regardless if they were actually in sleep mode or not... and I seem to notice nameless rarely have the patience to interact with a laying deer (for the most part).

What I was referring to in my original post, however, would require very little intuition on the part of a nameless or anyone to take notice (and so it made me wonder) when a deer is very actively greeting and playing with other deer, but treats the nameless as empty space, not responding to a bow or even simply giving a sniff. It's an extremely common occurrence, but since they're viewed as generic, it's justifiable. I'm not trying to come down upon it as though it were a crime since everyone's entitled to enjoy their deer as they see fit, but sometimes I don't think players realize how easily it expands from "just a nameless" to "just another insignificant deer on TEFc".

rice's picture

I think there's a difference

I think there's a difference between attacking someone and just mucking about. I think it's great to play with new players/nameless/fawns and when I have my deer do so I use the angry/aggressive emotes provided the other deer does, as well. Because it's exactly that, how else are they going to learn?

But I think deliberately going after someone to annoy/attack them - new player or not - and taunting, teasing, chasing them around the game, etc, is something that should be saved for players you have permission to do so with.

I myself am able to handle aggressive or annoying deer and can ignore them, but players who are new to the game might take it more personally or might not be able to handle it. I just remember being very confused about the game at first, and appreciated being left alone so I could explore and get the hang of things. Obviously it might be different for different people, but it's hard to tell, y'know?

Anyway, this is just my opinion. Smiling I think this is a really interesting topic; I've seen it brought up a few times but never really contributed.
Unplugged's picture

Thanks for contributing rice!

Thanks for contributing rice! I also enjoy discussions a lot. (Also, being provocative is fun Evil) So I made this thread because even though many people complain/are aware of the issue, it has never been properly discussed. I love how this is going, people are talking and it's nice.

I also actually appreciated not being approached because I was really unsure about interactions and didn't know what to do; I felt more comfortable playing passively and just taking it all in.

I agree with you. "Aggressive" playing and attacking are two different things. The former is a way of playing the game, in the end it's all in good fun. It's playing out a story - acting, if you will - together with someone. It's about the intentions behind it.


The problem is this. We don't know what the player behind the avatar is thinking.

We don't know how they interpret our actions. We don't know what they want or don't want to communicate. The Endless Forest is so vague that it's impossible to ever be sure, especially because new players need time to pick up on the best known interpretations of actions. We can try to put ourselves in their shoes and treat them like we want to be treated, but most likely they still think differently from you and me.

That's why I think being nice and open is the best option. It's just the safest way to go, and it shows that you value friendliness even when someone might not understand you.
woodswolf's picture

I agree with you, Unplugged.

I agree with you, Unplugged. I just recently entered the Forest and, well, I've been confused too. I don't know who they were, but earlier today I was confronted by two deer (both in white... I think they must have prayed recently) and they both did the 'taunt' e-mote. I respectfully bow to every deer I see (I read it's easier with large groups to do sweeping bows, when you rotate while bowing) and they still taunted me. I have no idea whether it was playful taunting or not, but, even then, it kinda offended me. I think I have to get in the Forest more often, even though I am already addicted to it and spend as much time as possible there.
I can tell you that I would be greatly offended (and also scared) if someone did aggressive e-motes at me and chased. No, it wouldn't throw me out of the Forest, but... if it were repeated, it would.
Sure there are 'points' in the OP, but... those points are stupid. I read up there that M & A sometimes play as fawns and namelesses!
And even then, I see it no different to treat any deer differently just because they're a fawn or nameless. Here's my rule: If they're not an AI, respectfully bow! The point is, there are no AIs (except for some animals like the fish and some birds) so just be polite to everyone!
Now, I'm okay with play fighting, but I would ASK if I could play-fight with someone on TEFC first. If it's not arranged, they won't know it's just play!
I hope this helps.
See you in the Forest!